This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club.
http://gotopia.tech/bookclub

Check out more here:
https://gotopia.tech/episodes/418

Sam Keen - Founder & Researcher at AlteredCraft & Author of "Clean Architecture with Python"
Max Kirchoff - CTO at Ginko & Multidisciplinary Technologist & Creative

RESOURCES
Sam
https://bsky.app/profile/samkeen.bsky.social
https://x.com/samkeen
https://github.com/samkeen
https://www.linkedin.com/in/samkeen
https://samkeen.dev

Max
https://x.com/ProductNihilist
https://github.com/maxkirchoff
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxkirchoff
https://maxkirchoff.com

Links
https://www.heyginko.com
https://martinfowler.com/bliki/TestPyramid.html

DESCRIPTION
Max Kirchoff interviews Sam Keen about his book "Clean Architecture with Python". Sam, a software developer with 30 years of experience spanning companies from startups to AWS, shares his approach to applying clean architecture principles with Python while maintaining the language's pragmatic nature.

The conversation explores the balance between architectural rigor and practical development, the critical relationship between architecture and testability, and how clean architecture principles can enhance AI-assisted coding workflows. Sam emphasizes that clean architecture isn't an all-or-nothing approach but a set of principles that developers can adapt to their context, with the core value lying in thoughtful dependency management and clear domain modeling.

RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Sam Keen • Clean Architecture with Python • https://amzn.to/4pBT5g0
Fabrizio Romano & Heinrich Kruger • Learn Python Programming • https://amzn.to/4myLBIt
Uncle Bob • Clean Code • https://amzn.to/3soPO6k
Uncle Bob • Clean Architecture • https://amzn.to/3x0gjBQ
Eric Evans • Domain-Driven Design • https://amzn.to/3tnGhwm
Naomi Ceder • The Quick Python Book • https://amzn.to/3zwdDOa
Luciano Ramalho • Fluent Python • https://amzn.to/3oSw2je
David Beazley • Python Distilled (Developer's Library) • https://amzn.to/3QjNBEv
Saleem Siddiqui • Learning Test-Driven Development • https://amzn.to/35OMb3n
Maciej «MJ» Jedrzejewski • Master Software Architecture • https://leanpub.com/master-software-architecture


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Sam Keen discusses his book on Clean Architecture in Python, emphasizing dependency management through layered onion architecture with strict inner domain layers and flexible outer framework layers. The conversation covers how clean architecture enables proper test pyramid implementation by reducing coupling, making unit tests simple and fast. Key principles include the dependency rule (dependencies point inward), domain-driven design for core business logic, and treating frameworks as replaceable details. The discussion also explores how clean architecture remains relevant for AI-assisted development by providing scoped contexts and architectural guardrails that help both humans and AI agents build maintainable systems.

Clean Architecture with Python • Sam Keen & Max Kirchoff